37 Comments:

• At January 18, 2005 11:37 AM,  Anonymous said…

  dude, go a mac!
  I'm so a mac fanatic - first mac my family had was a Apple IIe - green and black screen and the only game was darts! :)
  Then PC'd it for a while, till i went to uni and bought my first G4- A cube :D lovely machine.
  
  Anyways, fast forward till now, i'm doing one of those 'rental buy plan things' that Apple do - i'm paying off a 15" Powerbook G4. Hint - get an ex demo and u save heaps.
  At home we have wireless. Simons on a PC wired to the router. Jenna and I have wireless PB's and it works a charm.
  
  I say do it! But a 12" is seriously tiny... It might be cool cos it's small, but I'd wire it up to a bigger screen if ur doing any long stints on it ... (or u might need to get ur glasses back) :P
  
  But, yes, Macs can do anything now. I have a MSN clone running at work that looks like text windows so i don't get in trouble :P
  
  PS if u need any help with software, gimme a bell. (if u know what i mean..)
  
  dan - cuntmacula.

   

• At January 18, 2005 12:06 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  Much like a certain thread in the Carrot Cake Forums, I am also a Mac user and have been for over 15 years now. If you have any questions or concerns, just ask. I'll probably either know the anser, or know where to get the answer.
  
  The mac mini certainly is nice, but it lacks the peripherals in the price (Display, Keyboard and mouse) Although your current keyboard and mouse will probably work just fine. If they are USB, they will simply plug in and work as a keyboard and 3 button mouse, even without drivers.
  
  If desk space is a factor, the new G5 iMac or even a used G4 iMac will take up little space. The used G4 will probably be less expensive and, unless you plan on playing alot of high-end video games, will suit your needs fine for several years.
  
  iBooks are also nice and low cost. I actually have a 12" one now myself (Got it just prior to Christmas) Pretty cheap and it had the airport card pre-installed. Yes, Airport is compatible. it is the 802.11g wireless standard. Plus, any Mac will have a firewire port so hooking up your iPod will be a snap (burn off all your music files and pop them over to the Mac so you can set up iTunes.
  
  Oh, and if you are looking for software... *ahem* I may be able to help in that area too :D

   

• At January 18, 2005 12:10 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  PS: Dark Castle rules!
  
  Delta Tao (Makers of Dark Castle) are looking at making a new version/sequel soon... http://www.deltatao.com/darkcastle/dc3.html

   

• At January 18, 2005 1:40 PM,  reanon said…

  The reason I'm looking into laptops is because I can get this salary sacrifice thingy and it works out heaps cheap. it only works for laptops tho.

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:04 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Buy a iBook Rhi, you won't look back - it will be able to surf the Net and all that stuff, web develop and the interface kicks ass ... although how are your Unix skills? Be aware it's not Windows, it's better!
  
  Salary sacrifice kicks ass too ... great tax minimiser and it's like Hire purchase without the interest slug.
  
  Do it, I reckon your an iBook kinda chick.
  
  Adrian

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:12 PM,  reanon said…

  yea i realize the 12" is quite small, but considering I dont do any design stuff at home anymore, I will only be using if for general web surfing. but will hope to bring it to work too. maybe I'll even keep my huge ass monitor and hook it up to that when i want to watch movies from the computer.
  
  no, i have no unix skills! but i did use a mac for 2 plus years at uni. my last year (when OS X came out) i did most of my work at home, so i'm a bit rusty on that system but am eager to get familiar with it!

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:18 PM,  Anonymous said…

  People that have MACs, swear by them these days. I get on them and have no clue what I am doing! but, I think we can learn :)
  
  They are apparently better for graphic artists and things, so probably what you'll need Rhi!
  
  
  Sammie

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:19 PM,  Anonymous said…

  I am posting this response on my 3 year old 12" ibook :) All I can say is that I love this little thing. I find I use my little ibook more than my big PC. OS X is just great. I love it, and it runs so well. I love my Ibook as well, The only thing I can say is that the 12 inch is good for general web stuff. You can chat on MSN Messenger, most web pages come up fine. It can get a little sticky if you have a lot of windows open on it, but Mac OSX makes it pretty easy to get in between one and another. Your Ibook should last you a long time.

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:44 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Hey Rhi.. long time reader.. saw your post about the iBook and had to put in my 2 cents...
  
  Anyways, I had been a hard-core PC guy for 10 years when, one day, I realized that I spend more time DEALING with Windows than actually ENJOYING using my computer.
  
  I had been interested in the Mac for awhile but could never afford it. Having a decent paying job, it first started with a 10gig iPod back when hardly anyone knew what an iPod was. I then got tempted and bought a cheap (slow) iBook, which was replaced by a fat PowerBook a few months later.
  
  Clearly, I was hooked. It was plenty fast, had almost all the apps I needed, had some solid games, and was killer for video editing. iTunes took some getting used to, but I quickly found myself hooked by iPhoto, iDVD, etc etc. I can do everything I want without having to worry about crashing, viruses, spyware, patches, and so on. Not long after that I bought a Dual CPU PowerMac. (Which I will have FINALLY paid off 2 months from now) ;)
  
  Needless to say, I'm obviously hooked and now a hard-core Mac evangelist. If you told me that I'd be a Mac person 5 years ago, I would've laughed. I still have a PC that use on rare occasion (mainly to play PC-only games like Half Life 2), but most of the time it sits there unused.
  
  If you do get an iBook, I recommend no less than 512mb ram. A DVD Burner is also recommended if you plan on editing home movies. It's so easy to edit stuff and create nice dvd's using iDVD.
  
  If you want to do any REAL video editing, I know Apple had a deal (and might still) where you can get Final Cut Express for $99 with a new computer purchase.
  
  If portability isn't a big deal to you, you might also want to consider getting a Mac Mini. Not sure when they'll be shipping in the AU, but I would think within a month or two.
  
  You can get a Mac Mini with 1.42ghz cpu, 512mb ram, 80gig HD, and DVD burner for $700 (US). Then again, you can get a refurbished iBook from store.apple.com that's almost as fast for $200-300 more.
  
  If you have any questions, feel free to drop me an e-mail at mike@cdnet.net

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:44 PM,  ZW said…

  Just another Machead replying. Been one since I got my first Apple IIe, been using them ever since. Anyways, an iBook is an excellent choice. But there are a few things to remember, its very limited in upgrading options later on.
  
  Just make sure to get atleast 512MB of RAM, a larger harddrive, Airport Extreme, and the Superdrive. But also consider a second battery and AC adapter. I swear by the second batteries.
  
  This thing has saved my ass during class many times. Also, if you plan on using it as your main computer you'll probably want to go with the 14" just for the screen space (resolution is the same though). But if its just going to be your portable option the 12" will work more than well enough.
  
  Macs reign in superiority over PCs when it comes down to ease of use, and maintenance. You don't have to worry about spyware, viruses, worms, driver conflicts, buggy software (for the most part). Window's biggest problem is it requires way too much user maintenance for the machine to run. With your Mac you'll happily be able to do things without worry.
  
  Most retailers will give you the Airport Extreme card and Bluetooth modules for free. You can roam around your house, around outside and still have a connection. All Apple laptops come with ethernet ports.
  
  Anyways, well wishing for your next purchase.
  
  Feel free to email me if you have any other questions. Or you can check websites like MacAddict, MacWorld, MacFixIt, MacOSXHints, MacBytes.com and others. You'll quickly grow accustom to OS X.
  
  Also talk to the guys and gals at the Apple Stores. They love to help people and they can answer almost anything you can think of asking.

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:51 PM,  Anonymous said…

  there has never been a better time to join the cult of mac. our OS has finally got the upperhand on both performability, reputation, and graphics and the numbers to proove this are boasting. a 12" powerbook is what i have, and letme tell you it is a dream.

   

• At January 18, 2005 2:58 PM,  Anonymous said…

  ...iBooks have VGA (DVI for Powerbooks) out mirroring, you can go mobile and just go on the big screen at home.
  Same thing for keyboard and mouse...I use iLife O4', real good value suite...OS X GUI may reminds me of Solaris 7 or KDE 2.2 but configuration is a cinch...very easy to use...don't have to deal with any RPMS...you can
  install X Windows- the environment for running all those UNIX software...Much more stable...in America they use OS X to administer the Virginia Tech cluster known as the Big mac computer...you'll be suprised how much easier it is not to deal with those .dll files, and registry stuff that comes with Windows...go see the versontracker.com,...tons OS X software you can really put to use...even the software that comes with OS X (go check the apple.com page under OS X)...I started with 95, 98SE, ME, and gave it up after Win 2K...computing is so much easier...my Macs on OS X works as well as refrigerator (just plain works)...I would never turn go back to MS Windows, why don't you check out someone who's running it on a fairly recent (933mhz and above) machine...you'll like it alot...

   

• At January 18, 2005 3:01 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Well..another long time mac user here. Personaly I don't think you can go wrong by going mac. Much more reliable, all my PC friends turned into engineers cuz they were always reparing their PCs! If you're surfing you may want to consider that yahoo and MS lack certain features on the mac. No video with MSIM and no audio or avitars with Yahoo on the mac. iChat AV is awesome though. Also there is no intel IV5.0 video codec for OSX. Other than those minor things..GO MAC!...If you're really into games..most poular titles are available for mac, but don't expect to play Halo on an ibook. If you've got a digital cam DEFINATELY go mac. If you start to miss your PC..run Virual PC on your mac..its like havin a mac and PC all in one...hehehe (kinda). Hope I didn't confuse you more than you were...gonna stop now..good luck GO MAC!

   

• At January 18, 2005 3:06 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Hey lady, it's Sunny (SunnyCrittenden.com). I just got my 12" iBook a few months ago and I LOVE IT. I don't even think I've turned my PC on in about a month and if I did, it was only to transfer a file.
  
  I will never own another PC again, I've officially joined the cult of Mac. It took a bit of getting used to, but after I learned about Expose and other Mac features that are just way better, I was in love.
  
  So yeah, I vote iBook too!
  
  <3,
  Sunny

   

• At January 18, 2005 4:01 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Hey Rhi,
  I've had 3 Macs in recent years. A G3 iBook, a G4 PowerBook and a G5 iMac. Out of the 3, only the PowerBook has not caused me any grief.
  
  The G3 iBook was a fucking nightmare to say the least, I mean it was so blatantly Apple's fault they eventually did a voluntary recall on certain G3 700 models (including mine) for fault screen connections. After 3 repairs, Apple has a no Lemon policy, they offered to replace the iBook with the latest model, and I told them to get bent basically. I wanted them to give me the difference against a new PowerBook. So I bought a 12" Powerbook G4 and it's much much better. Powerbook = professional. iBook = Luser.
  
  Considering how often you're online Rhi, I'd highly recommend gettting a "power" series vs the "i" series. Power Mac, PowerBook etc are all vastly superior to their consumer grade cousins.
  
  My G5 iMac was pretty awesome, I've been impressed with it so far, but unfortunately just like, yesterday, the power supply blew on it. Reading Apple's support groups makes it seem like a pretty common problem. I sense yet another recall coming on. Some people are on their 3rd & 4th Power Supply.
  
  I love Apple, and I love their hardware. I've either had bad luck or it's worse than I believe it to be. My recommendation: Powerbook, don't waste your time & money with iBook.

   

• At January 18, 2005 4:03 PM,  Anonymous said…

  My two cents: I tend to about three dozen Macs at work, more than a few of which are iBooks. I'd much rather look after all of them than even a single Windows machine.
  
  The Mac (and its current OS) is sleek, friendly, intuitive, powerful, elegant and yeah, sexy.
  
  Sort of like a Jaguar in a parking lot full of pickup trucks.

   

• At January 18, 2005 4:12 PM,  Anonymous said…

  word of warning. I am a PC user who got a ibook and i must say i regret it all the time. Ignoreing incompatablitiy issues (there arent too many) the biggest problem i had was with Macintosh itself. Yea, the laptop is nice - but i can tell you this much, within a years time you wont be able to buy anything for your laptop. My battery died after 3 months of having the laptop (it happens, no fault of Mac) but when i went in to get it repaired they said they don't make my ibooks battery anymore, they upgraded the iBook and all the 'new' batteries dont fit right and are a different color. Since it was under warranty they -had- to replace the battery with a in-store model that they had. Thats just a pain.
  
  Another horror story of mine, i want to get a wireless card for my iBook. But low and behold my 1 year old ibook can't get a wireless card from a mac store unless its a store that sells old / used mac parts. Since they upgraded there airport cards, and discontinued the older models of the airport card.
  
  Thats just the horror story. I enjoy using the laptop for school, but if you ever have a problem down the road or want to upgrade some aspect - realize you wont be able to as easily as you would with a PC.

   

• At January 18, 2005 7:02 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Hi Liv,
  
  Just for some light humour goto http://www.applegeeks.com/index.php?comic=98 and follow through the story... I've linked to an older comic so you can get into the story line... It's a humourous mac centered comic.
  
  IMO you choose the tool to do the job you need to do. I need a computer where I can upgrade parts to meet my ever changing gaming and processing needs. I need to be able to use programs that I've learnt to use and now rely on for work and play. I need to be able to quickly troubleshoot problems based on my experience with software and hardware. In case you haven't guessed my tool is the pc.
  
  However, macs are cool and there are heaps of uses that people have outlined above. Lots of Pros, some cons. Windows is a buggy bitch to work with but I love her :). I've little experience in macs but if they suite your purpose and you won't be sacrificing... then do it.
  
  On another note most wireless routers/adsl modems have hard ethernet ports which your new mac should be able to connect to via cable (I'm pretty sure all newish macs have ethernet installed as standard). If it's a laptop then it seems a waste not to get the wireless card but at least you should have the option of plugging in if you need to.
  
  -silence

   

• At January 18, 2005 7:53 PM,  taminator1969 said…

  If you can afford it, I would seriously consider the 14-inch iBook. You will enjoy the extra real estate to work on when you've got Photoshop running.
  
  All Macs notoriously come under-equipped with RAM. I highly recommend running no less than 512 MB and don't buy directly from Apple. Many third-party suppliers sell equivalent RAM at a better price.
  
  And if your iBook comes with an Airport Extreme WIFI card built in, you should have no problems connecting to the WIFI network in your place. It's the beauty of owning a laptop and going wireless.
  
  Finally, if you think you need a machine with DVI output -- so you can hook it up to an LCD monitor down the road -- and you prefer something a little more solid, then consider a Powerbook. I've had a 12-inch Powerbook for about a year now and I don't know how I ever lived without one. It goes everywhere with me.
  
  Good resources:
  www.mikesjournal.com
  www.apple.com/switch/

   

• At January 18, 2005 8:14 PM,  Markuz said…

  Switch to Mac, as soon as you can.
  I had an iBook 12" (bought in Dec 2003) but broke it by accident and then switched to Powerbook 12". If it's in your budget get a Powerbook. Nevertheless Mac Os X is 10,000 times better than any Windows, applications are cooler and you get tons of valuable freeware on the web. Even commercial applications generally cost less for mac than for PC. I don't know anything about games, but I know that a Mac laptop weights much less than a PC so if yuo have to carry it along then it's definitely what you need (and this is what I need).
  
  Do it :)
  
  ...what about a Mac Mini? ;)

   

• At January 18, 2005 10:35 PM,  Ben said…

  Well, as a hardcore computer programmer and general techhead...don't get the Mac. I'll break it down:
  
  The cost of a 12" Mac laptop is more than the cost of a 15.4" Acer PC laptop. The screen size really does make a difference.
  
  The durability of the Mac laptops has been a major problem. In short -- don't jostle it too hard, or it will likely go boom.
  
  People go on and on and on about the security of Macs -- any Windows machine is easy to secure if you don't run Outlook or IE. So, that's easy to fix -- run Eudora and Firefox, and you'll be fine. And Macs will never have as much software for them as you'll find for Windows.
  
  Macs have cool, and that's about it. In terms of performance and ease of use, they're on par with Windows machines...except if you like keyboard shortcuts, which Mac doesn't support, and won't.
  
  So, put it this way: going for cool? Spend a chunk of change on a Mac. Going for useful? Spend the same amount of money on a name-brand Windows laptop that'll be more durable, have more screen real estate, have more programs that work with it, and by the way, will run Java properly, which Macs still don't do. Oh, and did I mention? If the Mac breaks, have fun finding parts to fix it with. Service costs on a Mac are about 3x those of a Windows laptop.
  
  My two cents.

   

• At January 18, 2005 11:08 PM,  Anonymous said…

  ^^^^ that comment up there sux.
  
  Asif anyone would pass up an iBook for an Acer laptop.
  
  Have you used a mac?
  Macs don't have shortcuts? WTF? Are you crazy? they invented keyboard shortcuts. (Hence the one button mouse). And don't go on about that mouse, u can use 3 button as standard, with scroll wheels. Just that most designers don't need other buttons as they use keyboard shortcuts. (IE faster).
  
  As for games? Who's a gamer? The good ones make it on mac anyways. And programs? Better and faster on Mac, and if they're not on it, they're not worth having.
  
  Adobe Creative Suite,
  Quark,
  MS Office,
  Macromedia Apps.
  Firefox.
  That's all you need.
  
  Then again, programmers need PCs and whatever it is u kids are using (Basic or someshit)... so i guess u wouldn't be using those apps i listed, which Rhi most probably will be.

   

• At January 18, 2005 11:22 PM,  Anonymous said…

  Just a comment.
  
  There is heaps of people saying that "when I got my ibook/powerbook I never looked back at my PC".
  
  Same here but with a difference. I have a Acer Travelmate. Yes I am sticking my hand up in a PC hostile comment thread.
  
  I love the laptop at the moment, and the reason I have a x86 laptop; everything I work with, the office, clients and there systems are Windows or Linux based.
  
  I have not had problems with Windows XP Pro since I run AVG virus, Zonealarm and Spy Sweeper to keep things clean. I also run advant browser which is like a suped up bullet proof jacket for IE. Its all about compatibility. Also there are Mac, Linux, Java virus out there.
  
  Wireless is the way to go at home. Just remember to keep a network cable to transfer very large files, its still quicker than radio.
  
  Consider Acers offerings. My office uses mainly Acers. We have had NEC, DELL, IBM and Compaqs and the Acers just keep on going.
  
  Damien (noderix)

   

• At January 18, 2005 11:38 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  Just a quick note to counter some inaccuracies regarding Ben's post:
  
  "The durability of the Mac laptops has been a major problem. In short -- don't jostle it too hard, or it will likely go boom."
  
  Totally and completely wrong. Macs and PC laptops have about the same durability. Macs will not go BOOM if you jostle or bump them. Drop a PC laptop and it will suffer the same kinds of fate as a Mac laptop.
  
  "People go on and on and on about the security of Macs -- any Windows machine is easy to secure if you don't run Outlook or IE. So, that's easy to fix -- run Eudora and Firefox, and you'll be fine."
  
  IE and Outlook aren't the problem for security, it's the OS in general that is unsecure. However, there are millions of viruses for PC and currently zero for OS X. And inherently, Macs are more secure when you first turn it on because of what is "on" and what is "off" by default. However, with some work, it is possible to make a PC reasonably secure.
  
  "And Macs will never have as much software for them as you'll find for Windows."
  
  Perhaps not, but there is ALOT of software. You can do just about anything on a Mac or a PC. And for every 10 software apps that do a specific task, there are at least 2 for Mac for the same purpose.
  
  and in his conclusion: "So, put it this way: going for cool? Spend a chunk of change on a Mac. Going for useful? Spend the same amount of money on a name-brand Windows laptop that'll be more durable, have more screen real estate, have more programs that work with it, and by the way, will run Java properly, which Macs still don't do. Oh, and did I mention? If the Mac breaks, have fun finding parts to fix it with. Service costs on a Mac are about 3x those of a Windows laptop."
  
  Completely innacurate. Macs are useful. They can do all the things you can on a PC. Less durable? Doubtful. More screen real-estate? maybe, but it should be compared model to model, not a blanket statement like that. Java? Macs run java fine. And with it's 1 year warranty, take a broken mac into an authorized Apple tech and it costs nothing. Which is not 3x the cost of PCs. And considering Macs use alot of common components that PCs use (hard drive, ram, LCD, etc) the cost difference will be minimal to non-existant if one is associated with it.
  
  I'm not saying that you SHOULD buy a Mac. I'm just pointing out the facts regarding incorrect assumptions.
  
  In the end, it's your decision. You should get a computer that fits you. Be it PC or Mac.

   

• At January 19, 2005 1:47 AM,  James said…

  I am gonna say it based on my (and only my) preference - PC.
  
  I myself am looking at Lappy's as my workplace area is puter free (rude bloody QLD Government) and so i need a laptop for work to waste the time.
  
  That and this machine is 3 years old and needs to spend the rest of its life as a server on a new wireless network in my new place.
  
  
  But go with your heart and ya head. Only you will be using it so you make the decision :)

   

• At January 19, 2005 7:26 AM,  Anonymous said…

  ive got a 12" powerbook.. and im getting a mini as soon as i see what theyre actually like.. no matter what one you get.. get the super drive (dvd/cd burner) and at least a gig of ram .. my mac rulz ok! - bews

   

• At January 19, 2005 11:25 AM,  Ben said…

  Not that I'm interested in starting a flame war with the Mac theologians, but a few minor comments:
  
  In regards to the anonymous poster who went on about the apps written for Mac: Every application Anonymous listed (with the exception of Firefox) is written on a PC for a PC, and is ported to the Mac platform...with all the attendant problems.
  
  In reply to Strongblade...my local computer retailer spends about 5x as much time servicing broken Mac laptops as he does PC laptops, and has generally commented on their fragility.
  
  The Windows OS is not, in general, less secure than the Mac. That's not a smart thing to say -- you need an intrusion point to be insecure, and an OS lacks an intrusion point. If you're talking about the networking components, I can hack into OS X more quickly than I can hack into Windows. Without the browser and email components, it's quite difficult to hack into Windows' networking components.
  
  Macs do -not- run Java fine. Mac is about a year and a half behind Sun in terms of their Java implementation. That's a well-known fact: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25240 (one example)
  
  As for the cost difference in repairs, I'm just passing on my experience with Macs and PCs, which contrary to Strongblade's evident belief, is quite extensive.
  
  And just to correct any misinterpretations, I'm not a religious Windows supporter, by any means: I run Linux. :^)

   

• At January 19, 2005 11:31 AM,  Ben said…

  Oh, yeah, almost forgot...on the subject of keyboard shortcuts on the Mac, here's a Mac user's critical view on them:
  
  http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/04/20/AnotherKey

   

• At January 19, 2005 3:22 PM,  rhiannon said…

  i fantasize about throwing the g3 out the window at work. those goddamn macs have given us nothing but trouble in sooo many areas. but i'm sure it's because the tech guy & i are going at it with our pc brains. that's what stops me from thinking about getting a mac of my own. while they are really cool, if something goes wrong, it's not as simple to fix as a pc. there's always someone who can help you with a pc, there's always something you can find online. everybody pays more attention to pc's, there's usually more software that's available to pc's only...
  
  macs are good for retarded people - & i mean that in the way that if you have no idea how a computer works & just want to surf the web or type something up, then that's the thing for you.
  
  but i'm sure they have their good points. i guess i can say i've gone from hating macs at 100% down to 65% so they can't be all that bad.
  
  & don't listen to me, i just feel like bitching.

   

• At January 19, 2005 3:39 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  And in rebuttal to ben's replies:
  
  "Every application Anonymous listed (with the exception of Firefox) is written on a PC for a PC, and is ported to the Mac platform...with all the attendant problems."Well, I can't speak for all that were listed, but having worked for Adobe for a year, I can certainly say the assumption is completely false regarding Adobe products.
  
  "In reply to Strongblade...my local computer retailer spends about 5x as much time servicing broken Mac laptops as he does PC laptops, and has generally commented on their fragility"Interesting experiences, I have to admit. Also interesting to note, having worked at my local computer store for 5 years, my experiences have been pretty much the opposite. So my original statement stands: "Fragility" of a Mac or a PC laptop are about the same.
  
  "The Windows OS is not, in general, less secure than the Mac. That's not a smart thing to say -- you need an intrusion point to be insecure, and an OS lacks an intrusion point. If you're talking about the networking components, I can hack into OS X more quickly than I can hack into Windows. Without the browser and email components, it's quite difficult to hack into Windows' networking component"I'd certainly like to see you try to hack Mac OS X. (No, really, i'd love to know how this is done. I've never met anyone who claims to have been able to do it and then actually prove it) Windows, in comparison is indeed easier to hack into. And the fact that IE and Outlook contribute a huge pair of holes in the OS doesn't make the system secure just by removing them (and removing IE is not an easy task either).
  
  "Macs do -not- run Java fine. Mac is about a year and a half behind Sun in terms of their Java implementation."Yes they -do- run java fine. Even if they are not excatly the same as a PC version, I have yet to encounter a problem running anything java-oriented. So please explain to me how Macs cannot run Java fine if even someone as myself who utilizes, and has even dabbled in programming in Java, without any problems apparently cannot do it properly?
  
  And no, a single discovered bug in the mac version (when there are also bugs in the PC version) doesn't amount to being unable to do it.
  
  "As for the cost difference in repairs, I'm just passing on my experience with Macs and PCs, which contrary to Strongblade's evident belief, is quite extensive."Actually, it is in my experience, not my belief. Take PC 233 RAM as an example. Take a stick of 512MB from a PC and put it into a Mac and it runs the same. So what price difference? Just because Apple charges outrageous prices does not mean that Mac components are expensive. PC 233 RAM is PC 233 RAM for either platform. THE COST IS THE SAME. Same goes for Hard Drives (ATA or SATA of a variety of sizes) Put them in a Mac or a PC. THE COST IS THE SAME.
  
  "Oh, yeah, almost forgot...on the subject of keyboard shortcuts on the Mac..."I'm still trying to figure out your point on shortcuts. Macs don't have them? Really? So Command C and Command V (Copy and Paste) don't actually work? Funny, It's what I've used to copy/paste your statements here. Just because, by default not every function has some kind of deranged random, and inconsistent in most programs, shortcut, doesn't mean they don't have them. as well, Mac OS X has a function where you can set up your own shortcuts for whatever you may want to add, whether it is in the OS itself or an Application. You can even change existing ones if you like. (Try that in Windows) And using TAB will toggle through them just like Windows does.
  
  *SIGH*
  
  When you made completely incorrect statements about the Mac, I felt obligated to correct them. It's not an attempt to start a flame war either. You are entitled to your opinions about the Mac, but please check some of your facts before you make blanket statements.
  
  I've been a Mac user for a decade and a half. i've been repairing and maintaining them for almost the same length of time. When it comes to Mac, I *DO* know quite alot about them. As well, I have used Windows on PCs for just about the same amount of time. I'm familiar with their capabilities and their shortcomings. I don't consider myself an expert on PCs, but since the Mac and PC are sharing so many similar aspects these days (both hardware and software) I am quite comfortable with either one.
  
  I simply prefer the Mac.

   

• At January 19, 2005 5:14 PM,  reanon said…

  < chants > fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight < / chants >

   

• At January 19, 2005 5:44 PM,  Ben said…

  *sigh*
  
  Okay, Strongblade. I'll respond to this point-by-point.
  
  Adobe Products On The Mac -- I was sitting at Macworld, four years ago, when Adobe's lead programmer for Photoshop bluntly said, "We target the PC. Mac has become second priority." Are you telling me, as an Adobe employee, that they code for the Mac first? Or that they code entirely different apps for each platform? Or do they, in fact, port it? Which is it?
  
  Java on the Mac -- The problem are with the GUI components. The OS X implementation of Java is significantly broken in regards to Swing. Here, have another link about that: http://www.xmldatabases.org/movabletype/archives/000301.html -- and another -- http://swingwt.sourceforge.net/faq.php (look at the bottom of the page).
  
  Fragility -- You can keep going on about it, but myself and several other posters disagree. My PC laptop works fine after three years; my Mac laptop broke down about two months after the warranty gave up, and has required continuous repairs since. They use shoddy components in the construction of them, and they're shoddily put-together. This has been the truth since the iMacs.
  
  I have zoodles of friends who agree, as have several people in this thread. This, I suppose, comes down to experience.
  
  Hacking OS X -- An older hack: Imitate Apple's update site by spoofing the DNS; there's no authentication process, so you can immediately download whatever you want to the machine, which will then run it via the update process. Poof. One exploit for ya. Got that one from here: http://www.cunap.com/~hardingr/projects/osx/exploit.html - This problem is now fixed on the Mac, but such exploits are coming out on a fairly regular basis. it's not hard to hack OS X. The fact that they all come with wireless these days is just a bonus.
  
  Cost Difference In Repairs -- It's not the parts...it's the necessity of repairing that costs more money than a PC. See the above point on fragility.
  
  Keyboard Shortcuts -- Did you even bother to read the link I included last time? Here it is again, as I'm not planning on rewriting that author's salient points: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/04/20/AnotherKey
  
  I've been using Macs, PCs, and Unix-flavored boxes for about twenty years, Strongblade. I've worked in the software industry for the last 16 years. I'm really not talking out my ass. Promise.

   

• At January 20, 2005 12:12 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  Well, one final kick at the can, but only because you do have some questions and I will try and clarify MY original points:
  
  "Adobe Products On The Mac -- I was sitting at Macworld, four years ago, when Adobe's lead programmer for Photoshop bluntly said, "We target the PC. Mac has become second priority." Are you telling me, as an Adobe employee, that they code for the Mac first? Or that they code entirely different apps for each platform? Or do they, in fact, port it? Which is it?"Well, when I was there about a year and a half ago, it was pretty even-keel. Both platforms are worked on simultaneously. However, I can beleive that, a few years previous PC was the forerunner and the Mac one was ported. My information is merely more recent than yours was. Microsoft also has taken a similar approach with the Mac Business Unit for their Mac Apps.
  
  "Java on the Mac -- The problem are with the GUI components. The OS X implementation of Java is significantly broken in regards to Swing."However, your ORIGINAL comment was that Java doesn't work on the Mac. I countered with saying it does. I never stated it was in perfect parity with the PC version. And both Mac and PC versions have flaws. But it DOES work on the Mac. Just not in every single possible situation. However, I have yet to encounter a Java app that didn't work. So my original point remains. Your mileage may (and appears to have) vary.
  
  "Fragility -- You can keep going on about it, but myself and several other posters disagree. My PC laptop works fine after three years; my Mac laptop broke down about two months after the warranty gave up, and has required continuous repairs since. They use shoddy components in the construction of them, and they're shoddily put-together. This has been the truth since the iMacs. "And as *I* commented, I have had dozens of Macs and never ran into anything truly problematic, including several laptops which survived quite a bit of abuse without a complaint. I've also had PC laptops that virtually exploded on my lap when you hit a key too hard (okay, I am exaggerating to make my point).
  
  My point is that, where your experiences are one way, mine have been the exact opposite. Hence my point that NEITHER Macs NOR PCs are any more or less inherently fragile based on PLATFORM. Both will have solid performing units, both will have lemons. And I too have had oodles of friends and colleagues with similar experiences.
  
  "Hacking OS X -- An older hack: Imitate Apple's update site by spoofing the DNS; there's no authentication process, so you can immediately download whatever you want to the machine, which will then run it via the update process. Poof. One exploit for ya. Got that one from here: http://www.cunap.com/~hardingr/projects/osx/exploit.html - This problem is now fixed on the Mac, but such exploits are coming out on a fairly regular basis. it's not hard to hack OS X. The fact that they all come with wireless these days is just a bonus."Once again, you seem to miss my point. I never said OS X is NOT hackable. I said it is INHERENTLY MORE SECURE because alot of potential exploits are blocked by what is "ON" or "OFF" by default. In comparison (And especially with the IE and Outlook programs) it is laughably easy to either hack or get spyware/viruses onto a Windows machine. It is MUCH HARDER to do the same on the Mac.
  
  And as for wireless... I don't understand your point. BY DEFAULT Macs have both WEP 128 bit and WPA as encryption methods. These are not "APPLE" methods, these are INDUSTRY STANDARD PROTOCOLS. If you have encryption, you are going to have the same kinds of security or vunerability on a Mac as a PC. And last I heard, 128bit WEP and WPA were reasonably secure.
  
  It's up to the user to add a network password. I don't know about other brands of routers, but on the Apple Base Station install/configure software, it prompts the user and suggests highly to use encryption on a network when a user runs the software for one. On the Linksys I have, I had to go to an embedded web page and dig a bit to add encryption when configuring, not quite as user-friendly for a newbie. But still possible, either way.
  
  However, the WEP/WPA protocol on the Mac and the PC are still the same.
  
  "Cost Difference In Repairs -- It's not the parts...it's the necessity of repairing that costs more money than a PC. See the above point on fragility."And if you see *MY* point before, the pendulum shifts the other way. That is why I again said the difference will be negligible BASED ON PLATFORM. Individual units and experiences can vary greatly to one side or another. In repairs, for more than a dozen Macs in 15 years i have had to spend $ 0.00 dollars to repair them. My PC friends spent alot more in 15 years. Again, mileage may vary. hence, my original point.
  
  "Keyboard Shortcuts -- Did you even bother to read the link I included last time? Here it is again, as I'm not planning on rewriting that author's salient points:"I glossed over the page, as it was really late and I didn't have the time to figure out what supposed 'salient' point the author was intending, other than YOUR comment that Macs don't HAVE keyboard shortcuts. I stated they do, because as a 15 years long Mac user I use them constantly. There is even a new feature for OS X which allows the user to make his/her own for either the OS or an application. (Here is a link to the customization aspect on Apple's support page for more info: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=152140 )
  
  "I've been using Macs, PCs, and Unix-flavored boxes for about twenty years, Strongblade. I've worked in the software industry for the last 16 years. I'm really not talking out my ass. Promise."I don't think you are talking out of your ass. Neither am I. But some of your comments were just plain wrong. Some might be misinformation that simply reached you. Other things may have been true in the past, but not lately. Some may have merely been bad experiences piled up over time.
  
  For me, it's been mostly the opposite. All my bad experiences have been using PCs. On the Mac it's been smooth sailing for a decade and a half.

   

• At January 20, 2005 12:18 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  heh... Rhi... silly girl, we are not fighting... we are debating. :D

   

• At January 20, 2005 2:55 PM,  Ben said…

  Methinks we're at an agree to disagree zone. That said, Rhi's now got the viewpoint of two experienced computer people *cough prejudiced Mac user* *cough unbiased Linux user*. So, yes, I figure she can make up her mind from here, cuz otherwise this wheel is gonna go round and round and round.

   

• At January 20, 2005 11:04 PM,  Strongblade! said…

  While we *cough* debated, she already went ahead and made a choice. And despite all our effort to *cough*hack*wheeze* educate each other as well as all the muntedmess posters, she made the choice on her own. *cough*
  
  Damn. I hate this cold.
  
  Hey, Ben, you have a cold too! Get well soon, buddy! ;P

   

• At January 21, 2005 11:00 AM,  reanon said…

  hahahahhh classic! thanks boys for the educational and entertaining comments :)
  
  but yes, i have already ordered the 12" ibook. i've never owed a mac or a laptop before so yea, i'm excited :)

   

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